This topic contains 6 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  Malcolm Schluenderfritz 5 years, 7 months ago.

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    In the first video, Larry says that nature is perfect, but that little experiment with Humans might not have gone so well.

    As a Catholic Christian, I think our view of Humanity fits well with Permaculture.

    God created nature perfect. Then he created us, also perfect. However, He had given us something no other part of nature had; a intellect and will. He wanted us to freely love Him, and this was the only way to make that come about.

    However, we decided in our pride that we knew better than God, and turned against him. And then we decided that we knew what the world ought to look like; and it didn’t look like God’s design at all. Thus we are the only imperfect things around.

    So Permaculture from a Catholic, Christian viewpoint is an act of humility; admitting that God does know best, after all.



    Well, no need to be so negative about it, it’s likely just another paradigm shift. I gotta admit it would be nice to use our free time to take a more nature-centric approach out into the universe using our spare time than the mine it and pave it approach we currently use, but I must admit that we did not settle almost every niche on our home planet by just taking only what nature gave us.



    I think that is a good thought if you have to have a perspective. Everybody has a perspective, but that is how we relate to things. We build a perspective. It is also how we come about with labeling things. It’s not good or bad, but it can limit the way we understand and can close up our minds. We start to think that is the answer. Like the discussion on entropy.
    Some bight human being decided that all life tries to break down. We see life as a seed in that light, but what if life started at death? At the molecular level. After all, they say we start at primordial soup.
    We as humans have a real need to break things up to understand them and decide that is the truth, then quit. We keep believing that part as the whole. This is all there is. Label it. I personally do not accept entropy. It does not make sense if you really believe in life. There are no exceptions to a workable theory. That theory is flawed if there is an exception. The thinking is incomplete.



    i think A J Miller among others might agree – i believe that his view is – and i agree – our task is to use the tools god gave us (hands, opposing thumbs, big brain, memory, thought processing, etc) towards helping nature to be the best it can be and we will struggle less

    clearly, it is not us who are smart, it is nature
    as soon as we put aside our notion of being clever, and ask for the answer (ask and it shall be given unto you) it may take a while but the answer will be provided
    I believe that when we feel we know nothing, our egos dissipate and the communication begins to flow between ourselves and empathetic nature

    We begin to get ideas, understand how things work (take for example the story of the spitfire) by opening ourselves up to higher consciousness

    When nature communes with us and we are open to that discussion, we begin to look very clever indeed, – until we begin to think that it is we who are clever, and stop listening :L

    Which may be also the reason why I have held back from Permaculture for such a long time – perhaps I am finding that the ways I have learned work are the permaculture ways we are just using different language and a while bunch of brilliant new learned solutions to try thrown in
    I agree about the design etc but think that there is a need to hold out a little for flexibility – nature may provide a much simpler or cuter solution, but then of course i guess the more research you do before implementation the more likely your plan is going to look like the finished product, but sometimes all of this can be a little daunting and really what you should be doing is getting in there, start working, even just collecting leaves, wood, sweeping up, and allow the discussion to begin/ nature / your gut feelings to guide you on



    As a non-Christian, I have a different point of view that is more “indigenous” in nature.

    Nature is perfect. So is Man, because Man is just another part of Nature. There is neither Good nor Evil in Nature. From the perspective of Geological Ages, if we destroy ourselves, that’s fine. Even if we destroy much of the Biosphere in the process, that’s fine, too. There have been five mass-extinction events in the past, and we might well precipitate the sixth. Life will go on. Mother Nature will recover, and another Age will begin.

    Would it be bad for Man? Sure. Do I want to see that happen? No. But I don’t pretend that what I think is bad for me or my grandchildren is “evil”. I would much rather see Man succeed in coming once more into harmony with his environment. It appeals to my aesthetic inclinations. I feel joy with the idea that, in another generation or two or ten– we will have finally figured out how to live in peace, prosperity, and sustainability. I will do all I can to see that future realized, rather than another mass-extinction. All I can do is my best. I won’t worry about the rest.


    Hello Kevin,

    I will do a little thought experiment. I am a Christian. But I will take your world-view for just a moment. Here is where it SEEMS to lead me on this issue. I am sure you see some way around this position; can you explain it to me?

    Maybe perfect nature NEEDS another mass extinction event, to be caused by men tinkering with nuclear bombs. It had the last five, after all.

    Here in Colorado, vast forests have just been destroyed by fires following beetle kill. Now seedlings will jump back out of the rich ash, and a young forest will be born. This is the natural course for a lodge pole pine forest.

    Bugs eat diseased plants, keeping them from contributing to the gene pool. Maybe Man is a big “beetle”, evolved by nature to clear away an old ecosystem, and generate a new. Vast debris fields, mutation causing radiation; and a new world is born. This is roughly what happened after each of the great extinction events; life came to a new and greater flowering.

    Now I would say that building nuclear bombs is a wrong action, to be stopped. So are all the polluting, over consumptive actions around us. How can we say that these are the wrong course for us, with your world view? How can we promote Permaculture as a better way of life? If businessmen and governments have been evolved this way, what is the problem?


    I should add that at present, I am trying convince people to stop using Bayer’s products, which have been shown to be contributing CCD. I think this world would loose something if the bees vanished. But, it seems (again, correct me if I am wrong) that in your worldview, Bayer is just as natural as, say, an astroid or ice age.

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