This topic contains 16 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by  Anonymous 4 years, 3 months ago.

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  • #38299

    moira
    Participant

    hi interested to hear in lecture 52 urban permaculture around 40 minutes in – if everyone was to become organic we would not have enough manure

    ok this was a conversation i was have with local distributors and remembering all the slurry from my dad’s mootel and all those images of slurry pits from indoor farming
    surely it is not only about gardening in natural state but also fixing up problems industry has created, so why not have businesses use sewage trucks to take the slurry from these huge ponds and deliver it to farms and gardens in large and small quantities
    my dad used to fill up his old much spreader with slurry and just drive around chucking it on top of the fields
    i believe the quality of his soil was hugely improved when he came to sell (i am sad to say I was just getting interested in all this stuff when he sold up)

    perhaps containers with some kind of tap system could be figured out so you could just fill a bucket and pour it into trenches mixed in with organic matter

    ok there may be worries about chemicals used in medicines etc but when spread thinly and added to biomass which will devour and reduce to useable compost why not?
    so while we are trying to get farmers to think again about mass production, at least it will help fix the huge big issue of what to do with the slurry meanwhile won’t it?

    #38300

    Vladislav
    Keymaster

    (You are receiving this message in reply to your post @ /forum/introductions)

    Hello moira and welcome to the Online Permaculture Design Course!

    I am really thrilled that you have chosen to join us for this world-changing program. With many tens of thousands of enrolled students, this is the world’s largest permaculture education course, and we’re really quite excited to share this knowledge with you.

    I want to take a moment to let you know about a few options that can help you get the most out of your learning experience with us:

    – Our instructors answer questions on these forums, and we generally really encourage you to participate in the forums as much as you can, as it will really help you engage with this material in the best possible way. You are encouraged to post any questions you may have about the lectures or general permaculture questions.

    – The course itself is offered completely free of charge (no catch, no gotcha, nothing). We also offer the same material on DVD (so you can watch it on your television) and you can purchase the DVD sets @ http://www.regenerative.com/dvd

    – We do offer the internationally-standard Permaculture Design Certificate as an option with this course. The certificate program includes an experiential design project and examination; the design project can be for virtually any topic, including your own property. You can learn more about the certification @ http://www.regenerative.com/certificate

    If you agree that the knowledge we offer in these lectures is worthwhile, we encourage you to support the continued development of this program by purchasing the DVD sets and the certification. The DVD sets also make truly fantastic gifts for friends and loved ones, and are a great way to introduce other people to permaculture (consider donating a set of DVDs to your local library!).

    Again, welcome on-board. I encourage you to take a moment to post on the other forums. If you have any questions, please post them in the Technical Questions or the Q&A forums (/forums). On behalf of our entire team, we hope that you enjoy this program and look forward to seeing you take this knowledge into the wild!

    #38304

    trisha
    Participant

    Here we don’t have many cows, but more sheep. The farmers keep the sheep inside through the winter which creates a LOT of manure. Then they spread it all back over the land–the wheat fields, the green manure fields, the fallow fields. . .they give some to the neighbors.

    I think the pairing of the sheep and the fields at least keeps a ballance. But it is definitely large-scale production with tractors etc.

    #38506

    Hannah
    Participant

    I don’t know why it’s not done, its genuis! Run outta manure? I don’t think so. People might began paying for it but animals never stop poohing. It’d be fantastic. I’ve began using horse manure. Not sure where you’re from, but in the US this problem is juge, and disgusting. It’s ridiculous. The ponds and the waste and the antiobiotics and so forth. If we could only get more people to grow their own food, and use this waste.

    #39016

    trisha
    Participant

    People do pay for manure in France. Some farmers give it away, others charge you 25 euros for a truckload (you haul) and I’ve even seen very large commercial transport trucks advertising alpine sheep manure.

    But something I’ve been wondering about . . .I read some time ago that spreading a bunch of manure over your land is not a great practice–it was argued that manure gives a huge nitrogen kick almost like conventional fertilizers and the goes on to pollute ground water etc.

    I see that permies seem to use it anyhow, but I’m just wondering. Still, around here, there is poop literally all over the place, so me putting it on my tomatoes probably won’t change much. And I guess having it go to make food is better than having it just sit as concentrated waste. . .But I was curious about the topic. Do some permies consider manure to be almost cheating in a way?

    #39146

    moira
    Participant

    dont know if this is relevant
    http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/business/sectors/32771.aspx
    i have watched a number of permi vids before finding this course and they seem to suggest that manure was good – but am also interested to know what permi experts think about all this

    #39587

    Tim
    Participant

    To my understanding, we apply manure just we do any other organic matter, table scraps, blemished fruits etc. so that it becomes part of the system. When the manure is laid down, it becomes food for earthworms and bacteria. In essence, it soon isn’t manure at all, but part of living organisms or ultimately humic acids and minerals. In this fashion, the nutrients remain in the property because they are constantly being recycled by the plants and animals. \

    Should manure become scarce, a permaculture garden of any real age won’t be affected because whatever has already been applied is still there. It’s just a matter of composting the waste that it produces with very little extra added in.

    However, the average horse produces 50 pounds of manure a day so…….

    #39720

    Tamara
    Participant

    Is anyone concerned about using manure from cows fed a GMO diet part of the year? I have access to free manure by the truckload, but I’m reluctant to use it for this reason.

    #39757

    trisha
    Participant

    Tamara–that’s an interesting point. I’ve very little knowledge of cow manure but I know that seed leftovers are a concern with sheep and horse manure. Never thought of that!

    Also–I like what Moira posted on the guidelines of spreading manure on a property so that it won’t get swept off the land and into the water. So far, I’m honestly kind of nervous about using manure around our home since I’ve got a very young daughter (3 years) who shows extreme pleasure in mucking around in the dirt and planters–I don’t want to make her stop, but she’d literally be rolling in poop if I applied it to our garden

    I think I’d be less bothered by using humanure from a composting toilet in the sense that you compost it totally for a number of years first–around here animal manure is laid out in it’s fresh form in the fall and left to over-winter. . .But all that could just be my own irrational worries!

    #41339

    Anonymous

    yes i share your concerns, those poor cows

    #43646

    Anna
    Participant

    Hello ,
    I have two horses which produce al lot of manure. But before I put it in my garden I let it rod for some time , the longer the better . I also startet to produce Terra preta for improving the soil in my garden but I don`t have any results yet.I produce charcoal in my kitchen oven in two pots so that there can´t get oxygen in , afterwards I mix it with my organic kitchen waste and let it ferment and wate for the lactobacilli and the earthworms to do the rest. The charcoal has the benefit that it sanitizes the material so I startet also buildung a compost toilet (first for my little son becaue he didn´t want to use our “normal” toilet ) But this way I´m able to hold much more nutritions at place.
    In 2012 I was at the EuPC ( european permaculture conference ) and there we had compost Toiletts for over 200 people and because of the charcoal , forestlitter and microorganism mixture we spread over our pooh it didn´t smell a bit and it was hot by the way. But you have to divide the pee from the pooh otherwise it won´t work the right way.The pee we collect in straw that gives a good proportion between carbon and nitrogen.

    I hope you do understand me I´m still on the way to improve my english.

    #43674

    Andy
    Participant

    I believe manure has greater benefits in terms of building organic matter in the soil than as a fertiliser. Different types of manure contain different nutrient levels, and these are relatively concentrated in fresh manure, which is an important consideration underpinning the idea of allowing manures to break down before applying them to your plants.

    From a horticultural perspective Nitrogen (N), Potassium (K),and Phosphorus (P) in manure are the macro nutrients most likely to impact plants. Other nutrients are usually only available as trace elements. Soil conditions such as pH, soil moisture, soil structure and existing nutrient levels may have a bearing on how trace elements accumulate in soil or are adsorbed by plants. However generally it is N, P and K you need to be more concerned about.

    In which case you need to consider how a sudden injection of nutrients will affect the soil conditions and existing plants. For example chicken manure is very high in phosphorus compared to other manures, and applying it fresh to soil around phosphorus sensitive plants will result in toxic conditions for those plants, but not necessarily for others.

    Looking to manure as a primary source of N is not such a good idea. Think more of using nitrogen fixing plants, and building organic matter in the soil.

    Nitrogen is taken up by plants and leaches rapidly; which is why it is important to keep soils enriched with nitrogen. However too much N applied to soils can be a problem due to leaching and run off into waterways, which creates downstream problems such conditions conducive to algal blooms, and altering nutrient levels in marine and riparian ecosystems.

    Generally, you would have to apply HUGE amounts of organic matter to cause nitrogen toxicity, because the concentrations of N in organic matter is actually relatively low (and variable between different types of manure); particularly compared to the levels in chemical preparations, such as ammonium nitrate.

    The application of manure/organic matter to soils is more likely to result in nitrogen drawdown (where nitrogen becomes temporarily unavailable to plants) during the time that bacteria work on breaking down the nitrogen in the manure. For this reason applying fresh manure to existing plants can see the plants set back until the nutrient conditions in the soil stabilise again. However, this does not contraindicate applying a large amounts of manure to build organic matter and improve soil conditions.

    #43849

    Anonymous

    Where do the instructors answer questions on these forums?

    #44253

    Anonymous

    Hi, we have beed growing our own veggies for some years and we rarely use any manure. Use lots of compost and liquid feeds made from comfrey and another from nettles, seems to work well here in southern england.

    #44319

    naomi
    Participant

    Seems ya have to purchase the DVD sets at least to see the instructors answers unfortunatly Maire… from vladislav – keymaster ..2nd post: We also offer the same material on DVD (so you can watch it on your television) and you can purchase the DVD sets @ http://www.regenerative.com/dvd

    If you agree that the knowledge we offer in these lectures is worthwhile, we encourage you to support the continued development of this program by purchasing the DVD sets and the certification. The DVD sets also make truly fantastic gifts for friends and loved ones, and are a great way to introduce other people to permaculture (consider donating a set of DVDs to your local library!).

    There maybe other sections on here I haven’t found that they answer questions but from what I have found so far..this is the case..
    Posts by instructors are only available to users who have purchased the Course 18-DVD set since the tuition fees cover instructor time, the maintenance of this website and further development.

    Please support this incredible course by purchasing your DVD set today!

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