Veganic is the New Permaculture Part 2

This is an article in response and an update to the previous article I wrote ‘Veganic is the New Permaculture’ which can be read at the following link /veganic-new-permaculture

Since writing that article I have seen a great documentary film entitled Back to Eden which can be seen for free following this link

The film shows the wonderful way we can replicate nature growing organically through the use of mainly wood chips. There is a whole detailed process, but the basics of the system is that once we implement such system comprised of mainly, different sizes of wood chips and after several years of tending to the garden, if properly done of course, the garden can maintain itself and not much work, like crop rotation or watering or fertilizing etc. is needed. But how is this possible you ask? Well in a nutshell; what one gentleman Paul Gautschi wanted to find out, was how Mother Nature produced/produces orchards of abundance without getting people to water, till, rotate crop etc. and how she produces all the fruits and vegetables of the world. So he dug and pulled off layers of matter that covered the earth and found some remarkable things that Mother Nature was doing that hadn’t been implemented before. I am not going to describe the process in detail, but you can see it in the film itself, which is a little over 1hr. 40 min.

I can definitely say that this system that Paul Gautschi has implemented is far more efficient and ecologically sound compared the conventional system or even organic systems that many producers implement and use, though, I can unquestionably say it is far from perfect.

What I found very disturbing in the film and the practices that Paul and others have implemented, is the use of animals for manure, blood meal and the eggs from chickens for fertilizing and eating. I find it completely disgusting and vile to be stealing the products from these animals that were intended for them and not for us. Also using animals, no matter how nicely we treat them, in the end equates to violence because eventually, and this happens even on backyard small operations, the animals production of eggs, milk etc. declines and all animals are sent off to the slaughterhouse to be mercilessly killed. This goes to say when we see these animals as beings with the right to live their own live freely of humans; we won’t use them or their products for anything. So manure is out of the question. What Paul Gautschi is ultimately trying to do is replicate nature in his own backyard, however it is not possible to replicate nature 100 percent because it posses a lot of ethical issues pertaining to raising animals for their products and eventually in the end slaughtering them.

On the other hand, I don’t object to eating wild fruits or other plant foods from Mother Nature, even though animals were there and their manure is spread around. I don’t see this as violating animals in any way as no human is involved in rearing them. And even though animal manure is spread around the land from animals it is very ethical because eating the fruits from the earth does not harm animals in any way. In fact, it is a circle of life and interconnectedness that everyone benefits from. Also, the manure that Paul and others get to fertilize their garden is surely not gathered from nature. The manure, even if it came from organic sources, still poses health issues like E. coli (escherichia coli), salmonella and other pathogens that are rampant in modern animal agriculture.

According to Dr. Will Tuttle, author of the Amazon #1 bestselling book The World Peace Diet, growing veganically on one acre can feed up to 50 or 60 people. But on one acre, we are only able to provide approximately one to one and a half cows. It is possible to feed the entire world on plants alone, no problem! But today more than ever, we are growing food like corn, soy and alfalfa to feed to farmed animals. According to Tuttle, we could feed 12 to 15 billion people if we fed the grains to people instead of diverting the grains to feed livestock. I truly believe that we can feed even more people if we include the already abundant supply of wild fruits and plants Mother Nature grows herself and implement some of Paul Gautschi’s ideas.

This world is so rifled with vast array of problems of our own making. I think we need to step back and look at the world with a whole new set of eyes and use intuition—our hearts and minds to see what we’re really doing to animals and the planet and to transform that into veganism and vegan education.

grain“I believe that until we are willing and able to make the connections between what we are eating and what was required to get it on our plate, and how it affects us to buy, serve, and eat it, we will be unable to make the connections that will allow us to live wisely and harmoniously on this earth. When we cannot make connections, we cannot understand, and we are less free, less intelligent, less loving, and less happy. The most crucial task for our generation, our group mission on this earth, perhaps, is to make some essential connections that our parents and ancestors have been mostly unable to make, and thus to evolve a healthier human society to bequeath to our children. If we fail to make the connection between our daily meals and our cultural predicament, we will inevitably fail as a species to survive on this earth. By refusing to make this essential connection, we condemn others and ourselves to enormous suffering, without ever comprehending why.”
‒ Dr. Will Tuttle, From ‘The World Peace Diet’ pg. xv

An acclaimed author, educator and filmmaker, Michael Lanfield teaches the ideas in the #1 Amazon best-selling book ‘The World Peace Diet‘ by Will Tuttle, PhD. Inspired by Dr. Tuttle and Pythagoras his talks are in-formative, inspiring and interactive. He is currently writing and producing a film and book based on his life and awakening and the ideas in The World Peace Diet, entitled The Interconnectedness of Life.


Wasn’t 1 billion the population before the boom of fossil fuels? Could that be the planets carrying capacity? I think we might need to think about humane ways to downsize the population, rather than articulate a world where it will be OK if our population keeps growing.

There is place for everything…………. keeping the balance is the Key!!

Yet so many people have sensitivity to grains; I know I do; I get eczema every single time I ingest grains. What we really need is a return to the farming practices of 100-200 years ago, where synthetic pesticdes, etc. were unknown, farmers used compost from their animals waste to enrich the soil, and crop/animal rotation was routinely used so that soils weren’t so depleted at the end of the growing season and well before subsidized crops came into being.

A problem here….is eating grain even good for humans?

That is a really sick delusion you live under.

Not really. Meat is healthier by far. And we have plenty of room and resources.

Overpopulation is the #1 problem.

What 20th century arch-dipshit decided livestock should eat grain? Cows etc are RUMINANTS, they eat GRASS, not grain – somebody flunked Biology! Get the cows the fuck out of the feedlot and into the pasture. Follow them with chickens two days later to keep the flies down.

I can’t eat grass, but cows can, and I am happy to eat cows. I don’t eat maggots, but chickens sure do, and I am happy to eat chickens. When you stop trying to make Nature something it isn’t to satisfy squeamishness masquerading as morals, you might actually un-fuck yourself.

Until then… *facepalm*

Sorry, last time I checked, humans are considered OMNIVOROUS; how much more do you need to (successfully) grow to offset the protein provided by herbivores consumed by humans?

Only if it is organic…

When I was a kid (wow turning 70) my grandma was a rancher (raised a 50 head herd of prized polled Herefords til she was 70!) and grandpa was the farmer. She said the livestock ate the stock..that part of the plant that remains after the grain is removed. Ruminates have the ability to digest this tough cellulose which our stomachs are unable to do! Where has common sense gone in 50 years! Too many City Folk and too few real farmers/ranchers left!

Are you kidding me?

You get eczema because of the chemicals used to treat the grain, not the grain itself.

Not true. I have tried the ancient wheats also with the same results. Same with brown rice and oats. I buy organic. Don’t assume. Grains are not always a good thing. I even tried sourdough, doing it myself, with organic flour, untreated. Same result. For me, at least, it is the grains.

Meat is good only if raised on pasture by responsible farmers who do not feed them grains, for which their stomachs are not designed to digest.

… we need to feed animals so we can feed ourselves .. im a meat eater =P
— The Tattooed Homestead

Whatever happened to the notion of Zero Population Growth? Education is once again the key.

I’m nowhere near ready to give up eating meat, but wouldn’t it be cool if everyone grew just a little of their own food? Edible landscape anyone (Village Homesteading Mundelein)?

You must be a big supporter of Bill Gates then! He’s under the same impression. Tons of YouTube videos out there talking about creating population control via vaccination of the masses.

LIKE!!! 😀 <3

You’re kidding, right? In Canada the only population growth we maintain is from immigration. If our doors were closed there would be a population shrinkage. If you consider that Canada has only approximately 35 million people in an area larger than the USA – where the entire population of New York and it’s burroughs is equivalent to the population of Canada – there is ample space, arable land, technology and resources to more than care for everyone. The problem is NOT lack of food, it’s distribution!

better to let the animals eat grain. I don’t want to get sick.

This is a really good post.

To be clear, the species-appropriate rearing of ruminants (dairy and meat cattle, sheep, and goats) does NOT include grains as feed inputs; the digestive systems of these animals are made to eat GRASS. Switching to grass-based production improves the effectiveness and humanity of the system immensely … but alas, ignorance abounds, and the commodity streams for industrial-model animal feeds would necessarily suffer.

Humanity Will Have To Go Meatless. Big Huge Peace 

Rabbits are another great way to turn calories that humans can’t effectively metabolize (grass, thistles, briars) into healthy meat. Animals also generate manure which is a very important part of a sustainable system. Taking animals out of a permaculture system is not good design, you’re willfully reducing the amount of connections that can be made in the system.

We just need to go back to small scale farms with only enough animals as your acreage can manage. Corporate farming NEEDS grains! And Monsanto and other corporate giants know this. Man is an omnivore and requires meat.

I don’t kill my chickens I keep them for manure and pest control. They no longer lay. They have about 200 square feet coup and roam the yard and eat insects all day cause the soil is alive including bees they snatch from the hives. And I think I am part of this earth, not somehow above it that I shouldn’t participate in the order of the universe. Those eggs are great. Love my honey and eggs.

Yes, and if we went back to growing heritage/heirloom grains and vegetables, we could restore the quality to the foods we grow, and feed the poor and homeless in our areas.

1 acre- support 50 to 60 people sustainably? LOL .. no. Even in prime location with long growing season, rich soil, plenty of even moisture… (His doctorate btw.. is in philosophy of education. Point being.. not a farmer.. not a gardener.. no background in agriculture.) **Do first**… then preach.. so at least you have working knowledge of what it takes to produce what you need, and be able to maintain it long term (especially soil vitality/ fertility/ humus/ yields/ pest control/ disease control.)

So true.. we grow quite a few acres of alfalfa, mixed grasses, & clover.. to date I haven’t seen 1 vegan grazing in that crop. A ton of wildlife (deer, turkey, rabbits, etc.) but no people. 😛

Robin Lennae Laurila-Borawski

Humanely raising free range animals in a closed loop permaculture system is not a problem. All the nutrients keep cycling through the system. Any true permaculturists understands the many benefits animals can provide beyond just meat production. There are many productive ways of feeding animals without growing grain specifically for them. It’s the factory farming that causes all the imbalances.

A world with 12-15 billion people and no animals would be utterly horrible.


i feel
l the same way….i’ll feed my self and my animals… all go feed your


You talk of how “awfull” it is to use anything produced by animals as it was intended for them and there usage(i.e. eating eggs, using manure, etc.) yet say its tootaly ok to eat fruits and veges….. Isn’t your case and point applying to the living, breathing, growing plants? The fruits are for THERE usage (seed germanation), the vagetables are for the plants usage (photosynthesis, seed production). HOW IS KILLING AN ANIMAL FOR SUSTANANCE ANY DIFFERENT THAN KILLING OR ROBBING A PLANT? Both involve taking the life and needs of a living, breathing, growing being! In a vegan/vegetarian world EVERYTHING is blasphemy…


Oh my, just look at those three comments posted above me.

No. 1 thinks there would be absolutely no animals on earth without us humans.
No. 2 just goes into ‘whatever’ mode
No. 3 comes with the ‘plants tho!’ argument and most probably takes her/his children/nephews/neighbour’s kids to a pick-your-own strawberry harvest followed by a visit to the local slaughterhouse – because there’s absolutely no difference , right?!?

Our species is doomed ….


There’s nothing wrong with caring for animals and getting something in return; care does not necessarily equate with exploitation…

Way too much toxic geo-engineering in that picture to even share sorry

… Yeah except in a closed loop system you need the animals. Vegan is not the new permaculture. Stop trying to push it. And he’s talking about factory farming… So now permaculture is ok with factory farming?


I have chickens, and I eat their eggs. One of my hens went broody and I allowed her to have her babies and keep them until she decided that they were big enough. Then I gave them to the good home I’d arranged for them.

Your statement that “animals production of eggs, milk etc. declines and all animals are sent off to the slaughterhouse to be mercilessly killed” is untrue, inflammatory and clearly not fact based.

90% of what I eat comes from my gardens and my footprint is very small. I use the manure of the chickens to grow food for me and them. Is it your contention that I’m exploiting them by using their manure?

We don’t need hateful, inflammatory articles. The world won’t change overnight and your tone will alienate many. It might be more helpful for all of us if we kept the dialogue to how we can help and share ways to make it better instead of condemning what we don’t fully understand.

I’m doing my best-as are many of my friends- to consciously make the world a better place with EVERY decision we make about how we live on the earth. Please reconsider your tone and see if you can build bridges instead of bombing everything that doesn’t appear to fit your ideas of how life should be.

I agree. At the most, meat can be a condiment

We should certain eschew factory farmed meats.

sorry.. I like my steak… but.. we should all probably eat more veggies…

Nutrient dense vegetables have the exact same nutrient needs that we do. It is a match. We just need to grow live, chemical free food and rediscover the energy that is available and offered

Yes for me but I think that’s hard for a lot of people. I think better to reduce waste and animal product consumption in general, and make big improvements in animal welfare.

Although I think we eat too much meat, pasture grazing would greatly reduce the impact of meat production and creates a healthier product as well. Plus a lot of land that isn’t suitable for growing crops could be used as pasture.

I agree with cutting back the meat we eat and eating a better meat (pasture raised, grass fed…the way nature intended), but not cutting it out completely. Since I have cut back my meat consumption and started eating better meats…I feel a world of difference in my body.

I heard a perma advocate who has tried every diet now say he’s an “eating opportunist” since if you eat grains you’re still indirectly killing many smaller species living in the grain fields. Made sense to me. He, and I, try to live with the least impact possible and support local farms and urban agriculture 🙂

Yes I Agree.

Absolutely, let the animals be companions on this earth


If we expand crop farming we redevelop habitat and change rainfall and migration. Still bad for the critters. Changing how we farm – not what we farm – is key.

I’m all for it, and while we’re at it…we need to get rid of Monsanto and other evil manipulators of nature.

Ridiculous as usual.

The grains that are fed to animals and mechanically harvested represent many small animals lost, as well as forest lost to grassland. Polyculture and food forests make so much more sense.

I sure would miss my farm fresh eggs from my happy hens in the backyard. (They are so happy that they sing. I love to hear them.)
I believe one can eat only plants and other vegetation as long as one knows what to mix in order to find that essential protein needed for life. Not to mention the other essential nutrients needed by the body.

i did not feel healthy for the two months o abstained from meat

No I dont agree at all factory farms need to go but I would prefer to live by a whole section of pasture than row crops and pasture is far better for the for the earth in so many ways

No, I don’t agree with it. And “veganic” is decidedly NOT “the new Permaculture”.

Been vegan for 40 of my 57 years. Ran the LA marathon two years ago. Sheet mulched my front lawn 6 years ago and things just grow wild out there. Have to please the HOA so have ornamentals along with the herbs and veggies. I throw a little kelp out there in the spring. I collect small amounts of manure from the wild horses that live 5 minutes away, mostly for my fruit trees in the Fall. Otherwise, I’m beyond organic, my gardens are basically wild.

“What I found very disturbing in the film and the practices that Paul and others have implemented, is the use of animals for manure, blood meal and the eggs from chickens for fertilizing and eating.”

Aaaaaand we’ve jumped the shark.

Most rational people would like to find a way to have sustainable ag, insofar as it supports farmers, feeds people without shortage, and minimizes environmental impact. Whether one chooses to eat a vegan, vegetarian, pescetarian, or omnivorous diet should not be the point. As others have mentioned, one issue looming large is waste (nearly 40% worldwide), and the other is industrial ag methods.

Excluding animal ag in the form of pastures and regenerated grasslands is not merely idealistic and foolish, it’s not making the best use of resources, and it relies on a questionable subset of nutritional data cherry-picked to reach a particular conclusion.

Any time I see “veganic” solutions proferred, I’m curious to know how they can be applied in a sustainable fashion; the workable solutions seem to be coming from small farms that incorporate livestock in some fashion. They are far more efficient and offer real solutions. If the script is going to be written by people who are “disturbed” by use of animal manure and the consumption of eggs, then the whole idea of sustainable ag and permaculture is doomed from the start.

No there are nutrients you can only get from animal protein. That said it should be pasture raised. properly done, with all the greed removed from commerce we can still feed the world without the use of GM crops or factory farms animals

People can and should consume both veggies and meat primarily from local producers as long as certain conditions apply!

3. Set limits to population and consumption.
The third ethic clearly states the importance of observation and interaction in your design. Some things in permaculture may be seen as violent, well so is nature. Get used to it.

Animals and vegetables are human food. They go hand in hand. Conventional “food” from flora or fauna is not. Natural systems have both in abundance, cycling together. Violence is a part of living on this planet. Lions won’t stop killing zebras just because we don’t want them too. This is insane!

“We should start eating less, or no, animal products.” It is becuase I respect this page that I will continue to hound you on poor editing!

fewer animal products? yes. None? No way. I already eat far fewer animal products that I used to, save for the eggs I get from my chickens. However, I am not going to eat endless piles of quinoa and beans, just so someone else can have 9 children. Sorry.

I agree. It is counter religious but …limit population!

We need to shift our eating lower on the food chain. Natural systems do not have ‘both in abundance’. A cow, even a pasture-raised cow, converts feed and water much, much less efficiently than a bison, a bison less than a pig, a pig less than a chicken, a chicken less than a fish. If everyone on earth ate beef at the rate that Americans do the ecology would collapse. That said, beef is yummy and satisfying and occasional consumption of responsibly raised beef, bison and pork is pretty friggin’ awesome.

Monoculture and CAFO does not work.

We as humans make a decision on what is food. A cow can’t make a decision it cannot make a decision about the type of food it eats (meat or plant) Animals are not food. Humans have made the wrong decision and should re-think the decision. With a better understanding of science and plant based nutrition we can and should make better decisions.

For me it isn’t even up for debate. This is what is better for the plant and for our bodies.

No. That’s just wasteful. We need the animals to keep the cycles of the plants going and to build fertility in the soils. And various fowl and ruminants are capable of turning inedible plant and insect material into edible protein.
Since the plants need the animals, and the animals breed rather prolifically, we should eat the animals since we would have to kill them anyway to maintain the right balance.

that really depends on where you live….

Well raised critters contribute in many ways..

we are not designed to live without meat. our teeth are indicative of a carnivore. many who practice the vegan lifestyle are often malnourished and underweight. it is however, how hollywood gets that gaunt looks for sick concentration camp rolls, so i suppose it would serve a purpose.

Interesting perspective, I don’t buy it for a second. Mollison would crap all over this ideology.

I do not agree.

That statement is not in concordance with the principle of permaculture.

i’d like to see us get away from factory farming techniques, and more recipes with a little meat in vegetables, seeds, and grains instead of meat as a main course. We also lower our CO2 and methane footprint this way.
There are certain animals that need thinning out due to overpopulation or loss of high order predators. ducks, geese, deer, and wild boar are great examples. if we want eggs, we’ll have too many roosters whose eggs will be thrown away instead of being raised for frying.
Some seafood can be raised with no harm coming to the environment, like oysters, clams, and abalone. Not to mention we’ll probably see 3D printed steaks in the near future, proteins with no animal source.

Tell an Inuit that animals are not food and see the response you get. It may be a hard fact for many to face but permaculture is the science of whole systems. The earth is a whole system and it would cease to function as a closed loop without the cohesive relationships between the plant and animal kingdom. Violence, death and the consumption of flesh by competing species is one way of keeping the system in check. The third ethic explains this quite clearly if you use a little pattern language and understand that it was written with a whole systems approach, not just how we see the world at face value.

Take meat off the table and you grossly violate the second ethic. Many cultures rely upon it for their existence. How is this even a question?

You obviously understand what Bill was getting to in the third ethic.

Pulls out the “that depends.” Well played my friend.

I believe there is a place for animal products in food production. I believe there is no place for chemicals in food production without the users being responsible for all effects of those chemicals.

Don’t agree. But if OTHER people would like to incorporate less animal products into their diets, I am alright with that. So long as they will please leave me alone. Thank you.

Don’t agree, I’m in favor of humane raise of animals for human consumption.

Are we gonna turn animals into vegans too? Our teeth were designed to eat meat…get over it.

“I eat animals because that is my dietary preference.”
“I run over dogs because that is my entertainment preference.”

What’s different?

Standard vegan BS… Why if you design for absolute abundance, you don’t include animal component? Animals in your system die anyway, so why not eat them and get all thous beneficial nutrients that they produce (liver, collagen, B12 – you won’t get this stuff from plants)? Ethics? It’s just faulty logic and not wanting to look at facts (animals die even in vegan systems).

To each his own, I guess. I personally have a hard time swallowing something that was living and breathing a few weeks ago. >:(

My blood sugar would have issues. ..animal proteins keep it from crashing. body treats beans or quinoa like carbohydrates. ..

If only meat & boob milk tasted like spinach there would be no defense at losing spinach

And when you eat an Apple you are eating it while it’s still alive. Life begets life… it’s all a continuous circle. After I’m gone I will be eaten by microbes and insects… returning me to the soil.

no I don’t agree: without fish in the aquaponic equation you are reliant on chemical nutes, and why waste a good fish?

If you raise and value your own meat animals, there is a natural tendency to to consume less. I do think “we” could eat LESS meat.

Permaculture hates vegans. Jesus told me so.

Definitely less. We are piggies.

No, disagree. I don’t see how veganism could be the future of permaculture. I feel like that’s excluding too much from the system. You’d be excluding energy, excluding meat eaters of society, animals need management and sometime that means culling. I’d like to see more people take control over the meat they eat, that should be the goal.

We need to be tolerant.

Yes less! But in permaculture we need animals as well. The system as is is screwed.

ANY industrial ag results in the deaths of thousands of field animals per harvest, so enjy your soymilk latte. Also, it’s a myth that forests have been lost for animal ag in the US, the primary purpose for clearing forests has been produce ag. Animal husbandry is and should be a sensible part of any polyculture system.

Probably because beans and quinoa are high in carbs!

They have protein but its not the same when you have prediabetes hypoglycemia

Some animals need us just as we need some animals. Don’t screw up the cycle.

Did you actually read my comment?

Yes, except for the nutrients that are not found in vegetables, or are severely lacking. But aside from that? An EXACT match, LOL!

Yes. I merely pointed out that any ag that involves tillage and reaping kills animals. And I also noted that the “forest lost to grassland” idea is more linked to agriculture not involving livestock. Were these not appropriate points to make?

Humans are not hindgut fermenters. Apples to oranges.

Beans and quinoa do contain protein, but both have a greater proportion of carbohydrate than protein. Hence my comment that they are high in carbs.

Right now there are more cattle per pound on the planet than humans and they and their excrement are the largest methane producers. We ,as a species, really need to take a good look at this and voluntarily cut back on meat consumption for sustainable living.

I suppose you make sure it all comes from grass fed beef raised on the plains rather than in the tropics? And you’re making sure that the ranchers didn’t overgraze and contribute to desertification?

It’s not about asking people, it’s just the facts: animal agriculture is killing the planet. Eat less meat and save the planet.

The truth is all industrial mono agriculture is killing the planet.
Biodiversity is the key…

Dumbest thing I have heard? Those bastard early humans eating wild animals to stay alive. Inuit should live strictly on veggies too I suppose.

Fields of corn, soy, wheat…bad for environment. Fields of cattle, goat, chickens grazing on grass and insects, good.

“I killed a marauding bear to save my life.”
“I killed a home invader because they threatens my wife and children.”
“I killed a wild hog because I was starving.”

That would be more applicable.

Doing it as a preference? Darren Joseph, you moron. Do you understand the difference? Do you get survival vs. Hobby, preference, “because you feel killing is a ‘personal choice'”?

Gotta have 4 legged protein…

raise rabbits, feed them table scraps. No?

Less is a good idea. We really don’t need animal protein more than once or twice a week.

Look to nature. Some animals are carnivorous and some had herbivorous. Humans are omnivores. If you eat meat, make sure it’s organically raised. Consider the resources it takes to bring that meat to your table as well.

All life comes from some kind of death. Animal or vegetable, it is a moot point.

There are very large areas where grazing is just about the only real means to farm anything since irrigation for the land as a whole is simply impractical for several reasons as well Patrick.

Yeah ….I agree

Not true at all about the methane, not even close. Check out Nicole Hahn Niman’s “Defending Beef” for a detailed takedown of the GHG misinfo. Pastured beef is definitely sustainable.

Less than 1% of soy fed to American cattle comes from “the tropics.” And yes, I do make sure that ALL the beef, pork, chicken, and lamb I buy comes from one of two local, sustainable, pasture-based farms. As for “overgrazing and drought,” I’ll suggest that you, too, read Nicole Hahn Niman’s “Defending Beef” to separate fact from fiction. “Cows Save the Planet” by Judith Schwartz is also an excellent resource. Desertification comes about not because of overgrazing, but because of tillage and under-grazing or poorly managed grazing.

Everything in a herby Eco system consumes something else… Natural BALANCE! I’m not giving up salmon or bacon or crab or roast chicken- I just like to know that I’m not supporting the industrial food system as it is not sustainable!


Don’t agree with this. Even though I’m vegetarian, and might turn vegan soon, I don’t see how man-managed ecosystems can do well without animals. After all, in nature itself, everything is endlessly recycled. A forest wouldn’t say “I want my plants to be fed only by vegetal stuff, so won’t you animals please be kind and get out of here when you want to shit or die…?”.

No, and I’ve no desire to do so. Talk about getting as far away from nature as possible, between the having to import inputs and the not eating the way we’re adapted to eat.

Is this becoming a trend, because another permaculture page is pushing veganism now and that’s not why I’m interested in permaculture. You haven’t pushed, say, cow-eating in the past and I have been just fine with that. Have some courtesy in the other direction as well.

Yes. I’ve been gardening in a vegan way. Now I’m starting a farm and plan on running it without deliberately hurting any life. There are plenty of wild animals, such as birds, fish, worms, insects, arachnids, reptiles, and amphibians, that can be drawn into well systems without “domesticating” them. Manure from mammals or birds doesn’t have to be a part of the compost to make it high quality; dynamic accumulator plants and humanure can add the nitrogen and other minerals. Animals, including us, are a part of this great ecosystem and we should learn how to coexist without imposing our functions on their natural lifestyles

Totally agree

On my urban farm I have been essentially forced to farm this way. I am not opposed to it, neither do I recommend it. Humans have been living *with* animals for thousands of years. One does not need to kill and eat an animal to live with it in a biocyclic way. Many people have dogs as pets. and many people have pigs as “rooters”. Also, many people have horses as beasts of burden. Are the animals being abused? Maybe? I think it is a delicate question that must be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. But I can say from my experience at “forced Veganics” that my plants are thriving just fine without manure inputs. I have not improved the soil *at all* and I do not water *at all* and I have been blessed with excellent results. But anything can change.

Disagree 100%. When Jesus returns we will go vegan for now meat is for your strength.

I have an organic vegetable farm. I eat meat to sustain the energy output to grow food

Industrial meat is barely meat. Just ever so slightly meat like.

Vegan just means poor hunter .

When we ALL realize their is NO global scarcity…unless we cannot see outside the box we’ve been trained to believe in…unless our paradigm is manipulated by those in control.

Well Dr. Tuttle needs to visit Joel Salatin’s farm

I’m pretty sure I’ll see a feathered horse before I can reasonably agree that animals can be left out of farming. I don’t buy it. They supply critical, high impact nutrients, and properly managed, a huge benefit to any farm!

BETTYANN you tell your husband DONALD you need these asap like right now lol

You could grow food for many, in your front city manicured lawns.

Thank you, Patrick. This has been covered so many times, and I’m REALLY disappointed in ‘Permaculture’ for yet again succumbing to the We Can Live Without Killing mantra. We cannot. We can avoid causing undue suffering. Lierre Keith lays this out so brilliantly in her book, The Vegetarian Myth. And yet humans want to live outside this Nature’s cycle of life, pretend we are superior somehow. The loop requires animal inputs. And grain feeding meat animals is against Nature anyway!

Seems to me many vegans are eating a ton of corn and soy grown in tilled monocultures.

Rather than grow a monoculture, set up the farm like it should be set up. A mixed farm of animals, vegetable garden, orchard, pond and wild areas. Animals provide nutrients for the soil. Grazing perennial grasses builds organic matter in the soil. Grazing areas can be rotated to gradually improve ALL the soil on the property. Pigs or chickens will recycle ALL food waste. Humans are omnivores and unless you are eating VERY specific vegetative protein sources, complete proteins are difficult to acquire. Eat like our ancestors ate, some meat, mostly veggies with a few carbs. This is not difficult to understand unless someone has an agenda.

So let’s just make all domestic and farm animals extinct. That’s what vegans and PETA really want, isn’t it.

Animals are meant to eat grass and improve soil fertility at same time.Feedlots have no grass so they feed grain,antibiotics for maximum growth and profit.This allows problems such as E-coli which can’t exist on grass fed animals.Small diversified farms supported by communities is the solution

Permaculture you are losing your focus. If we weren’t feeding livestock and they were allowed to openly roam and feed naturally, and allow citizens to hunt on their lands and territories we would get away from the modern meat mentality. Veganism is not healthy for some, and others CHOOSE not to have it forced on them. Stop with the Bolshevik crap.

Feeding people GMO food I don’t believe will help anyone. Tuttle’s heart is in the right place but his head is where the sun doesn’t shine. JMO

so what do we do with all the animals?

My question also

Until vegans can come up with a diet that doesn’t require a manmade supplement, not interested.

dumb idea. animals provide a balance needed..both for us the soil and the plants.of course, feed lot animals are a whole different story…


No, no it’s not. People who post shit like this have no concept of what permaculture is. Goodbye.

you bet. Let the animals go back to grazing not being forced to eat what they wouldn’t normally

Chickens prefer insects to eat. Grass fed animals are best.

Most of the grains aren’t so good for people.

Deborah, so true. Quinoa is actually a seed. I love it!

That’s all great but I happen to like eating animal protein.

So to feed more people we are to starve the animals by eating their food and not eating meat as the BIBLE says we can? Without the animals waste for fertilizer how are we supposed to maintain crop production? Ahh forget it i’ll follow the BIBLE and nature by using manure for fertilizer to grow food for animals and people then eat the animals and crops.

Whose bible ? Authored by wise use ?

That’s the kind of farm I grew up on. Everything was cycled and recycled. We had no garbage or even a can to put it in. We had a 55 gallon drum to hold bottles and cans but, if Dad had to empty it more than once a year he pitched a fit about waste.We had work horses, cows and goats for milk, pigs, chickens and beef cows for meat. We grew all our own fruit and vegetables. Must have been a healthy life because we have all lived into our 80s.

The trouble with saying we should all eat grains is that many of us cannot eat any grains at all. I’m allergic to all grains and to dairy, and I know many other people are as well. I’ve planted fruit trees and berry vines and I’m working on getting the garden in place, but livestock aren’t permitted on my city lot. I do what I can, but giving up meat in favor of grains would mean a short and very miserable life for me.

Dr Tuttle was talking “big picture” . Obviously individual people have different dietary needs and likes. As a society, we have destroyed watersheds from animal waste. Scientists have proven that the Earth’s population could be fed just from North American farmland. Permaculture principles are the way to save our earth and our health.

Thanks for posting!

Umm – Vegans don’t eat chickens or eggs. What’s the point of the photo?

Animals are as vital as plants! Where’s phosphorus and calcium? BONES! Who tramples grass so it decomposes properly? and if not oxidization occurs and nutrients are volatized! Don’t plants have consciousness too? It’s all here to eat and be eaten the only thing were missing is respect for the life!

Hell no… Healthy natural systems have to have ALL FIVE KINGDOMS!!!

I disagree. Just say no to clickbait.

In response to the above comments that implied the following..^

No. God gave us meat for strength.

No. Animals are WAY too tasty to give up as a food source.

Animals ARE ours. Man was given dominion over everything on the earth.

The transition away from the meat, seafood and poultry paradigm will take generations because, few vegans are farmers, and animal abandonment makes the entire shift incomplete, along with their passions that accompanies may resemble urban sprawl.
Must be wary of the cheating propensity, and Murphy’s law trying to lend a hand…
It really has to be well defined, and available at low cost.
The unemployed , white and blue collar, should be encouraged to stay on the land…
Laws must be enacted to keep independence in personal farming and self sufficiency untampered by government, especially from eminent domain

Meat kills Forrest’s

Throw in milk (goat and cow) and eggs and eating less meat, and I would be in.

Humans are omnivores. As long as they killed humanely. Unfortunately it doesn’t happen.

I just really, really, really like meat…..

I pull weeds right out of my yard to eat all spring through the fall and then dry them for winter. Pigweed, wild raspberry, wild currants, Chickweed, lambs quarters, nettle. All delicious and nutritious.


fail …not permaculture and certainly not the future.

Margaret Nguyen

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